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Bid on Lot #3166: Six Double Barrel Shotguns -A) American Gun Co. Knickerbocker Sh - 2 3/4' chambers, full/full chokes, and 14' LOP. Apr 16, 2013 I have an American Gun Co. 12 gauge Knickerbocker model cannot find a serial number one barrel says choke barrel the - Answered by a verified Firearms Expert We use cookies to give you the best possible experience on our website.
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Knickerbocker Shotgun Value
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Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:24 pm
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Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:03 pm
Posts: 2 |
Hi I've read through a bunch of archived post, but can't seem to find the info I'm looking for. I have a Knickerbocker 12 gauge double barrel (hammer-less) It has Knickerbocker engraved on one side of the receiver On the other side it reads American Gun Co. New York. The serial number is 151368From reading the archives I've learned all about the Folsom/Crescent stuff and the possible issues with firing modern ammo in these old guns. I'm just curious as to the approximate year of manufacture, and also any parts availability. I've know these guns are of very little value, but would like to know more about it and possibly semi-restore it, just out of sentimental reasons. Thanks in advance for any info.
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Post subject: Re: Knickerbocker shotgun info
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Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:12 am
Posts: 4950
Location: WA/AK |
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While the H & D Folsom Arms Co. records are long gone, the late student of these guns Joe Vorisek compiled a serial number chronology, and according to Joe's work your gun would be of 1909 vintage.
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Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 5:42 pm
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Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:03 pm
Posts: 2 |
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Thanks for the information Researcher.
Would that serial number also determine whether its a number 6 or number 7 ?
Also, does anyone know what type barrel that year of manufacture would have had ?
Twist or the Armory Steel barrel ?
The barrel on mine actually has a split in it, so I'd like to find a replacement barrel.
If anyone knows of any, or has a Knickerbocker parts gun for sale, please let me know.
Thanks again !
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Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:58 pm
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Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2008 10:42 pm
Posts: 3773 |
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To add to Researcher's information about the gun being made in 1909. All records of the Crescent Fire Arms Company were lost or destroyed during a scrap paper drive in World War II. The late shotgun researcher and writer Mr. Joseph T. Vorisek re-established the serial number-year made records as part of his research for his book 'The Breech Loading Shotgun In America 1865 to 1940. His work is an approximation but it's all we have and as stated the gun was made in 1909. The serial numbers for 1909 start with 140,000 in January and end with 168,000 in December. That's a total of approximately 28,000 gun for the year. Divide that by 12 and that's approximately 2,333 gun a month. Play with the numbers and your gun was made some time in November or December 1909. That was One hundred and fifteen years ago. Crescent Fire Arms went out of business in 1930. So there are no off the shelf parts available. That's not to say that there are no parts to be found. So many of these guns were made that some parts (not all) that some parts can be found.The major gun parts dealers buy up old shotguns and break them up for the parts. Parts and parts guns are sometimes listed on the various guns auction sites. Not always, you just have to keep checking. Twist steel would indicate a damascus barrel while a Armory Steel barrel would indicate a solid steel barrel. Makes no difference if your barrel is split. The age of the gun would indicate that it was designed and made for black powder and lead shot loaded 2 1/2 inch long shot shells. Since the barrel is split, I won't advise you not to attempt to shoot the gun. you can see the reason why. If you need parts dealers names and addresses, please feel free to ask.
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Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:09 am
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Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:12 am
Posts: 4950
Location: WA/AK |
Twist steel would indicate a damascus barrel while a Armory Steel barrel would indicate a solid steel barrel. Makes no difference if your barrel is split. The age of the gun would indicate that it was designed and made for black powder and lead shot loaded 2 1/2 inch long shot shells.
No it wouldn't. Smokeless powder was developed in the 1870s, Wood smokeless powder for shotguns being introduced in 1876. Shotgunners being a rather hidebound lot, it took 15 years to begin to really catch on, but by 1891 Union Metallic Cartridge Co. was offering smokeless powder shells. Winchester was providing factory loaded smokeless powder shells to selected shooters in 1893 and to the general public in 1894. If you look close at the catalogue page I posted the first thing under the description is 'Specially bored for smokeless or black powder'. The difference between the No. 6 and the No. 7 was barrel material. The No. 6 was the lowest priced Knickerbocker with Armory Steel barrels at $18. The No. 7 had 'Genuine Twist' steel barrels and listed at $20. The No. 8 had 'Genuine Damascus' barrels and a list price of $23. An additional $5 got an engraved gun. Most American shotgun manufacturers discontinued Twist, Laminated and Damascus barrels when WW-I cut off the supplies of the rough forged tubes to make the barrels from Belgium. Parker Bros. continued to make Damascus barrel guns into the 1920s, and there are a handful of Damascus or Bernard barrel Parkers with such modern options as vent ribs and beavertail forearms. Many believe those Twist and Damascus warnings on shotshell boxes were an industry ploy to try and sell new guns during the Great Depression, that has now become institutionalized by lawyers. All the above said, no one can tell you over the internet what ammunition may or may not be safe in a given gun. That requires hands on by a qualified smith. According to some DuPont Smokeless Powder Handbooks in my collection, the heaviest 12-gauge loads offered by our manufactures from the 1890s to after WW-I, 1 1/4 ounce of shot pushed by 3 1/2 drams of bulk smokeless powder or 28-grains of dense smokeless powder such as Infallible or Ballistite were very high pressure, in the 11,800 to 12600 pounds range!! Granted, there were lots of lighter loads being offered, but North American Nimrods being how they are, I'm sure plenty were taking these hottest loads off their dealer's shelves.
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Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:38 pm
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Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:35 pm
Posts: 1784
Location: AZ (heart in KS) |
I've posted what I believe to be a more accurate Dates of Manufacture for the Crescent hammerless doubles based on existing H.D. Folsom catalogs, which unfortunately were only occasionally dated. I could well be wrong. viewtopic.php?f=5&t=308330
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Knickerbocker Shotgun Serial Numbers Chart